The EPA and You: Interview with Chris Maida from American Iron Magazine

I am Dennis Santopietro, executive producer of the Fix My Hog DVDs and owner of Fix My Hog. I wanna welcome Chris Maida from American Iron Magazine. And you know, this guy, it's Bob Larosa. He's here to help us today go through a couple of questions on EPA. First of all, this video series is going through a bunch of stuff. We're going everywhere from custom to a little bit of performance. And when we get into performance, we're talking about exhaust air cleaners, and the issue is gonna come up. Hey, if I do this to my bike, what's gonna happen. Am I gonna go down the road? Am I gonna get pinched? Maybe get us a feel for where the EPA is today and maybe a little feel for where they're going in the next, you know, year or so. The whole question of what you can do to your bike and what you can't really comes down to whether you're using certified parts and whether or not your state's enforcing anything. It's really more of an enforcement issue than anything else. A lot of States, they don't care. They're not enforcing anything, do what you want. They're worried about noise levels, but other than that they're not testing. Other states like California and New Hampshire are getting very strict. So I'm rolling down the road in San Diego, I get pulled over, I just bought a nice 96 inch. I changed the pipes. They're gonna, I mean, they're training officers now is it gonna come that issue where the guys are gonna look for the stamp on my muffler? I was on the carb website this morning before coming down here just to get some current info. They've got a program in place where they're training chips officers to be able to walk up to a bike and tell whether or not the exhaust has been changed. I guess, air cleaner they didn't specify. But they can walk up to the bike and know whether or not the components have been changed. And then you're in violation because you bought it Right. So what if I'm going to a motorcycle show? I mean it, where are there any gray areas that still exists with the EPA law? Yeah actually the MRF, The Motorcycle Radish Foundation got two very important I wouldn't say loopholes exemptions is a better word for custom builders. The I'm going to a bike show only works If there's a bike manufacturer, say, oh, Big Dog or Sarah Hughes or somebody like that. They're allowed to make 24 bikes per year, or your shop. Ground up Bill's 24 per year that are not have to conform to EPA law. But those bikes are only to be used going you're only to post allow to go to and from shows with it. Then it's up to whether or not what show you go into and how far the officer wants to push it. Also, each individual is allowed to make one EPA example a bike in their own garage, but it's one for life. For your, if I build one, that's the one I'm getting. That's the one. And you're only allowed you can't sell it in under five years. There's other stipulations, but there is a little bit of leeway and that's why I don't call them loopholes I call them the exemptions because they're trying to allow our industry to stay where it is. Because if you follow you know total line with the 78 79 clean air act. Right. You can't can't do anything. We'd all be riding shovel heads. That's right. That's right in regards to that. So if you had a pre 78, you can still go nuts. Right? Right, there's no, there's no law up until that point. So you could do anything you want, right? Print 78 shovel heads. Now you can make modifications to a bike. If you use say it's a Harley using Harley certified packages. Those are fully legal now. If you take now, I don't think you can take an SNS motor even if it's certified or maybe you can. I see, I'm not sure there's some questions because- It's always a gray area. If it's an, an SNS certified engine can you re power your Harley with a one 24 SNS that's been re certified? Because you're putting a certified engine in a certified bike. I think that it almost be state by state again, Chris. I think so. It depends who enforces and to what degree? Yeah, so for me San Diego might be a little tougher than Missoula, Montana. Exactly. You know, so if you're riding depending on where you are And also if, if if you're into customization for your bike, similar to cars. If you wanna do something and you wanna have fun with your bike, enjoy it. It shouldn't restrict you. But know there're limitations that are out there. That there are laws, just like anything else. If you do this, you have to fall within this guideline. So, I mean, even some of the custom air cleaners that we've seen they have a little stock application to it where, you know looking head on, wow, that, that looks, that looks stock but it's taken a little more at least we're getting, getting through that. Right. And, and on the other side, in regards to customization, it's not affecting the, the bling so to speak on your bike. No. You can still go nuts with all your Chrome. Chrome is Chrome. It's not illegal, not yet It's powered train and engine components. The other thing with building a ground up custom is if you use a certified engine you can build what you want. Cause it's certified package. Right. You know, so there's there's room to still move but it's not like back in the day when we started where you can- Get away with what you built. Your line is what your brand is we would say. Yeah you can build what you wanted in your garage. I mean, those days are starting to draw to a close. Right. Which was the joy Absolutely. and the, everything of the- It's what made them unique. Yeah, well that was the whole thing. Are you able to design and build your own machine in the garage? You know, the thing that bothers me about it is, but EPA zone starts if I understand it right by 2010 if you counted all the motorcycles that would be on the road at that point, they still account for less than 1% of all the pollution that's being made. That's all we use and all the other things combined. Everything, everything. Oh boy Let's say, let's say it's 1%. Right. So, I mean, I'm having a problem with the fact that an industry is gonna be crippled. And to me, American freedom to do a, be original and do what you want as far as not hurting someone else but creating something for what? I mean, you're killing a net with a sledgehammer. It really is not gonna accomplish anything on the grand scale. Right? When a motorcycle is gonna especially when you take the percentage of 1% point that a custom from the original. That is customized from original condition ,absolutely. How often are those bikes ridden? It's not like a commuter car that's ridden 20,000, 15,000 a year. How many miles do you think most bikes get on in a year? The average original condition motorcycle if the guy's using it to commute naturally? Maybe on average eight, 10, 12,000 miles. How many guys commute? That's a lot. That's a small percentage. The heavy costumed bikes, you'll be lucky if you see three, four, 500 miles on. You're going to a show. You're going to a show. You're going on the road. You're gonna go see your buddy. It's not a lot of miles on that's what I'm saying. So I'm wrestling with the fact that they're making a law. So stringent on so few. It's not gonna fix anything. That's my problem. There is no fix. Not in that direction, no. You gonna put a lot of shops out of business. And you're gonna put a lot of guys out of work. And you're hamstringing a creative piece of Americana. Now getting into, we talked about maintenance before, we did our maintenance videos before. Right? And in regards to internal parts that are malfunction or need to be fixed, are they gonna get as stringent as you can't be in there for any reason? I mean, is it gonna ever get that crazy that they're to, you know? I don't think so. If you're just maintaining a vehicle and putting stock components back in, you're changing the Midas Muffler putting them Midas Muffler in your car. Right. You're fine. All they care about is you put a hot cam kit in it or alter something that may change the emissions. I mean, if it, they really wanna get strict with it, you can, if you're changing gearing and tire sizes, that's gonna change how much emissions bike puts out. Cause it's changing how much you have to open the throttle. Though I don't think they'll ever go that severe. That's really getting quite- It's like a crime scene. You can't break the seal or you're you're screwed. Right. Now it was proposed to make certain components like air cleaners where if you try to take the screws out they stripped. They do not want you to take them off. You know, a sort of like the idle mixture, screws on carbs. They plugged them so you couldn't get to adjust it. There's a reason. ....... drill. Well, it ran like garbage until you turned it a half a turn now it ran okay. How much could you have possibly affect the emissions. But that's why Harley ignitions are not adjustable Anymore and that's right. Yeah you can't adjust them because they they're set to they have to be locked in to where they were certified at. Right. Now we talked about it before, too. And it was in regards to where the industry is going and your new bike issues. You said there were 60 builders in the US right now? Yeah our most recent buyer's has guide we stopped at 60. There's more, but there's 60 bike manufacturers. They were 60 frame manufacturers. I don't know how many guys are making wheels. Just in the United States. Yes. Wow, incredible. So it's I think what's happened is our industry is quite glutted. I mean, Harley's pumping out a ton of machines. You've got of course you've got the shops like yours, building bikes. And plus they got all these manufacturers. And you got Harley and Polaris or Victory, I should say. And Indians trying to come back into the fold again. There's a Glock. And where do you, I mean, with, with anything, business is business, economics is economics and politics is politics. But do the, does Harley and does the, the Metric Lines and all that, the bigger, are they gonna be the main influence? They're gonna conform? Yes they have to. It's easier for them to conform. I can't come up with a hundred thousand dollars to conform, but a bigger company could right? So does that, do they then become the norm and EPA goes and says, hey, they did it so everybody else has to? What happens is the EPA decides what it wants to put out. Right. Then I think it goes to the big five and says can you meet these numbers in our or you must meet these numbers. How much time do you need to meet them? And how long? Right . So there's the grease on the skids. They get that, at least that leeway. Well, they all do right? But of course it's easier for the bigger guys to do it. Cause they have more dollars to throw at it. That's why it was important the MIC got in this engine certification program where you don't have to certify a whole bike anymore. You can certify an engine package. So say a guy wants to build a bike, the guy in the garage wants to build a bike, he can build the entire bike and then take this certified engine package, drop it in. It's considered illegal certified bike and you can still ride it. Even if he assembles it himself at home you don't have to have a dealership or No a registered mechanic assembler? I don't think so. I think as a, if I understand it correctly as long as it's a certified engine package and it can build as many as he wants. He can only build one exact- That is not my one per life time though? Huh? Is that my one per life? No. If I take it out of the box? It's a certified engine. Yes it's not excempt. See, now- There's our loophole. See Big Dog and Iron Horse they make thousands of bikes per year. But if they wanted to build an exempt bike they can build 24 of them. Cause they're a manufacturer allowed to build 24 exempt bikes. Right. But they can build as many certified bikes as they want. Now, does that also run with state to state stipulations? I mean like Connecticut you have to have a manufacturer's license, and you have to have brochures and a building so many square foot and you have to manufacture so many bikes a year just to maintain that license. You think that that must change state to state no? Well, if you're, if you're considered a manufacture by your state, you're allowed to make use of the 20, 24 The 24 okay. because you're a manufacturer. That's why there's 60 and plus- And plus. Manufacturers. So down the road and we only, we don't know we can't guess, or where's the future but- We'll be in front of the door anyway. I like to think I know where I'm going. But the, the local shops. I mean, it is gonna come down to, or is it gonna come down to you don't have the stamp. It's not EPA approved. You came out of that shop. It was stock when you brought it in and you rolled it out. Is it gonna go back to the owner of the individual shops throughout the country? Is it gonna, is the shop owner gonna be liable for modifications that they do? Do you, do you think that's the way it's gonna go? It's happening in certain States. It is already. For example, there's yeah. In New Hampshire, And I was talking to a shop that does quite a bit of engine work up there. Right now, New Hampshire has it out. Here's a state inspection station. If a bike comes in for an inspection and it has been altered, he is not allowed to inspect it. If he inspects it and passes it, he's liable to a fine which I think is five or 10,000. Let's shoot 10,000. Let's, lets. But he has certified for use on the road, a altered vehicle. Right. And the onus is on the shop. Right. And then of course the owner of the bike is, is nailed you know. Because now he can't ride that bike on the road. The power of the internet and sending parts and everything everywhere. I take off my head's and want them ported. So what if I send them to somebody to be ported when that person received it was stock. I mean, could it get that critical that if they did the work on it and sent it back to me, they're doing illegal EPA work? or is it when I put it back on the bike, I mean we might be splitting here. Well, let's say let's say you sent your heads out to be modified. Let's, let's play with a few variables. Sent your stock heads out to be modified. You bolt them back on the bike. The officer that walks up to the bike looks like the stock heads can't tell. When or if but in some States it's when they start to shove the sniffer up the pipes Absolutely. and they start checking emissions. If you can't tell from the outside it's been altered and it passes the emissions test because it's still running clean then you just stick it the same as with your car. You know, when you get caught. Well they don't pull it apart right? That's where- You made it through. You made it through. Yeah if you put high compression pistons in it but it still passes the emissions You gotta pass. you pass, you know. The cans are gonna be the hardest thing because of the duration, the overlap. And the overlap is letting a bunch of raw fuel right out the end of the pipe. That's but that's the purpose of overlap. Right? You can't cake and eat it too. Right. Right. It gets you a scavenging effect yeah Absolutely. Yeah. It's what creates power. So there are things you still gonna to be able to do. In some States you're gonna be able to do anything you want. I won't name the States but I know of two that they just, without even looking hard, they don't care. It's not an issue for them. You'll definitely let me know later though right? Soon as they turn off the camera. Absolutely. But they don't care. They don't. Now here's the other shoe with that. Just like the 55 mile an hour law right now the States don't care. You know, that's the government thing. That's the feds we don't care. If the feds decide to, well, you know we don't really don't have that much money for your highways this year. But we really like you to start enforcing this EPA mandate. Absolutely. Then you may have a problem again. Give and take when a handshake comes in . Right where you said politics is politics and business is business. So we don't know where it's gonna go. But you can look at history and say, that's what they did with the 55 law. What did they do with seat belts? Initially, they didn't enforce, law went on the books. Then they handed out warning tickets. Then they nail you for 75 bucks anytime they catch you. Right. So we are at, I think we're right at that middle ground now with these EPA laws. Right. You know. And again, but a lot of it is what's the State gonna do? They're gonna enforce. And then going back to it's your bike and you wanna do what you want. If you're riding 500 miles a year you know, your chances of getting busted are probably much lower than 15,000. You're not on the road all the time. Right? So the chance of getting picked up unless they're doing something crazy at a rally that you're doing. You doing whole shot in front of the bar for it. Yeah unless you're being and idiot. You're just asking for it. You said that, I think we're all seeing it that the industry is getting full. If you have all these frame builders and all these manufacturers. Do you think the ones that will float to the top will start playing with the bigger boys and providing them product that will be then for certified and filtered back through that? You know what I'm trying to get to on that point? What's gonna happen is remember, say 10 years ago you had a group of people building these bikes. Well, when it leaned out, we say had 20 to 30 of them. It dropped down to 10 of 15, right? Because all of them are not gonna all stay in business. The better ones to stay in business. Some good ones will probably drop out cause they just came into the game too late. they don't have a big enough name to sell through. Some of the manufacturers are already make parts for Harley or other. Right. Years ago, Kirk are used to make a two to one. And it was, it had Kirchner's name on it, but it was Kirker by Harley Davidson burst into the exhaust system. Grab my 84. This has been going on for I put that exhaust. I do remember. But again, it's like, it's like you you mentioned the strong companies, the cream will rise to the top. And if they have to feed Harley Davidson Then they'll feed him. Well also they'll feed the industry. I don't think the industry is gonna go away. I think we're just gonna get little, shops like yours are gonna feel the bite before anything, anyone else. That and they have the part after market manufacturers. Right? They'll feel. Sure. One last thing you can never make your certified motorcycle now EPA exempt. If you have a Harley and it was certified, of course it was before it was sold. You can't now say, well, that's gonna be my exempt bike. Ah, I would've never even thought of that at all. You cannot alter a certified bike. You can build it from the ground up. Now, the other nice thing about that one for life you build it with this soft tail frame. You can change that thing every year because the numbers on the frame. Right. Right. It doesn't say what it is. It's an exempt bike. So this year it's got a one 55 engine in it, next year it's got a 60 cubic inch engine in it. That's your project bike for life. Right? This year, it's got bags next year it's got Dennis the chopper. That's true. You know, so it's a very powerful law. You just pointed back and that's the 96 cubic inch up on the left there. Nice boarder. I know you've been on them. You wrote about them in the magazine quite a bit. What do you think? It's a nice, it's a nice motor. They spent quite a bit of time. I think they told me they spent the mill just on getting the exhaust system to stay quiet but flow more air. That's getting more power out of it. That's the deal. The odd thing is the 96 engine as you were saying before very bulletproof, doesn't make more horsepower, makes more torque. If you feel it seeded a pants Cause all you want is torque. Right. That's to me, torque is the most important of the two. Yeah well, you know, when you get to the higher RPM remember the heads are still stock 88 twin cam heads. So they're not flowing enough air to feed it on the high RPMs. But it's an excellent excellent motor six speeds are nice. Absolutely. That's a nice gig. Get it six right out of the box. You have enough top end gear. On the topic EPA, When and if does Harley Davidson force it is are they forced to make something water-cooled other than the V rod for emissions sake? All right. Here's here's Can you give us more consistency in temperature? Other than the V rod we have already? You've ran into like airplanes. Which one's better high wing low wing? Right now there's a big debate about whether or not the V twin air cooled will be able to meet EPA regs of two 10 or beyond. Right? Some people feel that you can't run the chambers of that hot without them being water jacketed and that you gonna smoke the motor. Other people say you can, and you can run a catalytic converter in the exhaust, which means the heat is in the exhaust pipe not in a head burning or whatever carbons you have left. So some people say you can get around it that way. A lot of people feel the V rod was made because of the upcoming EPA regs. You can't do it with a water-cooled Harley made the V rod. And it's gonna branch that family out to dinar soft tail and bigger models Get used to the 60 degree cause that's already here. That's what some people feel. Only of course will never comment on what is coming down the road. And I can't blame them. Some people feel that some people don't. Some people feel that he can keep the 45 and they'll make it conform and they can do that. So it's a good question. I don't have a No I'm just curious Chris. better answer than that right now. I appreciate your honesty absolutely. Well, I appreciate coming by. My pleasure man. It's been a good series. We've put together, I think and we're bringing people from the maintenance level and bringing them up into customization. But we didn't wanna bring up the issue. Don't wanna leave people in the dark about certain things they have to be knowledgeable about. Right? You do that in your magazine all the time letting people know what's up out there. Great work. Thank you. People can do certain things. It's up to you to understand what you're doing to your bike how you're doing it and where you fit in with regulations and violations. It's like when we used to run drag pies way back in the day they were illegal then just like they were illegal now. Well, wait, till you get caught is the truth. You pay the fine and you pay the penalty. And if you wanna play in that arena As men, we know we do. You leave the house, you know what you're going out to do. Enjoy yourself just the same. I appreciate you swinging by and hopefully catch up with you again. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks man. Appreciated. Great to get the hang. Great Chris.